Which would you choose Octane or Defiance?

[TeamDixon2016]

Hi all,

Posting here in hope of receiving some helpful advice.
Having been a Mac user for the past 12 years, this years current offering has left me very disappointed with Apple, price and spec wise. So with great optimism I have decided to leap back into the world of Windows based Pcs.
However, I am very out of touch with what is good, and which is "better".
Below I have selected two similar (In my eyes) systems with comparable specs.
I would like the laptop to be fairly future proof, lasting 5 years or so ideally.

The Defiance seems to have a "better" processor, with the rest of the components being the same, but comes in costing £100 less. I don't believe I am a power user, and I don't believe I must-have an I7 processor, but if I can have one for less, then why not ?

Storage isn't so much of an issue, with Dropbox, Google Drive and Onedrive to store most of what I need on the cloud, and I tend to stream most movies, media and music.

The only game I tend to play on a laptop would be Football Manager, so I would like this system to handle that on max settings for the foreseeable.

Are both systems easy to upgrade personally ? I read on another post that the Octane has 4 RAM slots, 2 easily accessible, 2 requiring the keyboard to be removed. Would PCS fit the RAM to the less accessible slots if asked ?

Are both systems fairly straight forward to add a second M.2 drive and fill the other 2 HDD slots if required later on ? If either has a more hidden connection, again, would PCS install the SSD in the harder to reach slot if asked ?

Thank you for your time. Here are the specs I have chosen.


Chassis & Display
Defiance Series: 15.6" Matte Full HD IPS LED Widescreen (1920x1080)
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™ i7 Quad Core Processor 6700HQ (2.6GHz, 3.5GHz Turbo)
Memory (RAM)
16GB HyperX IMPACT 2133MHz SODIMM DDR4 (2 x 8GB)
Graphics Card
NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 1060 - 6.0GB GDDR5 Video RAM - DirectX® 12.1, G-SYNC
Memory - Hard Disk
NOT REQUIRED
M.2 SSD Drive
256GB SAMSUNG SM961 M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 3100MB/R, 1400MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
NOT REQUIRED
Memory Card Reader
Integrated 6 in 1 Card Reader (SD /Mini SD/ SDHC / SDXC / MMC / RSMMC)
AC Adaptor
1 x 200W AC Adaptor
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Thermal Paste
ARCTIC MX-4 EXTREME THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY COMPOUND
Sound Card
Intel 2 Channel High Def. Audio + MIC/Headphone + SoundBlaster X-Fi MB3
Bluetooth & Wireless
GIGABIT LAN & KILLER™ WIRELESS-AC 1535 M.2 GAMING 802.11AC + BLUETOOTH 4.1

Price £1472.00


Chassis & Display
Octane Series: 15.6" Matte Full HD IPS LED Widescreen (1920x1080)
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™i5 Quad Core Processor i5-6600 (3.3GHz) 6MB Cache
Memory (RAM)
16GB HyperX IMPACT 2133MHz SODIMM DDR4 (2 x 8GB)
Graphics Card
NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 1060 - 6.0GB GDDR5 Video RAM - DirectX® 12.1, G-SYNC
Memory - Hard Disk
NOT REQUIRED
M.2 SSD Drive
256GB SAMSUNG SM961 M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 3100MB/R, 1400MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
NOT REQUIRED
Memory Card Reader
Integrated 6 in 1 Card Reader (SD /Mini SD/ SDHC / SDXC / MMC / RSMMC)
AC Adaptor
1 x 230W AC Adaptor
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Thermal Paste
ARCTIC MX-4 EXTREME THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY COMPOUND
Sound Card
Intel 2 Channel High Definition Audio + MIC/Headphone Jack
Bluetooth & Wireless
GIGABIT LAN & KILLER™ WIRELESS-AC 1535 M.2 GAMING 802.11AC + BLUETOOTH 4.1

Price £1577.00

Thank you for your time.

Greg

 

[Stephen M]

What will be the main use of the laptop as that will have a bearing on which is best. If you want portability it will be the Defiance as it is much lighter but the Octane is the more powerful computer, more of a desktop replacement than straightforward laptop but it does weigh 1kg more and the power brick is not small, that said it is a great machine. The Octane will be the most upgradable, including the CPU, it uses a desk top CPU that is not soldered to the mother board.
You would need to check with PCS direct (this is just a user's forum) if they will fit the RAM in the slots you wish but they probably will, I am awaiting delivery of my third laptop from them and have always been pleased with the service. I have the oldest version of the Octane and changing the two HDDs/SSDs plus the m.2 has not been a problem. You can get the user manuals from this site: http://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_down.asp?lang=en , the Defiances are: Clevo P650RG and Clevo P650RS-G, plus the Octane: Clevo P751DM2-G.

 

[Scott]

Based on those 2 options I would go with the Defiance to be honest. The Octane is without doubt the better system but it has a lot of drawbacks that can sway the decision (I'm an Octane III owner btw).

There is no contest in regards to spec though, the Octane III is by far the more futureproof system and by far the most competent system of the 2.... as above it depends on your needs, I would guess the Defiance would meet them and then some.

Things to keep in mind.....

The Octane is a Desktop replacement
The Octane uses a replaceable/up-gradable desktop CPU.
The Octane is an enthusiast laptop, you ideally need to know your way around overclocking, repasting, etc to get the best out of it.
The processors are not perfectly comparable due to being mobile vs desktop.
Neither Laptop will work at full tilt on battery mode, there's just no way to manage it with the output of the battery. Even with the power plan set to allow maximum performance.

Both will be similarly upgrade-able. Additional drives are very straight forward to add.

IF going for the Octane, I would recommend the 17" variant. IMO it's the best option with cooling etc in mind. The 15" octane isn't going to give you THAT much more portability.

 

[Oussebon]

but the Octane is the more powerful computer, more of a desktop replacement than straightforward laptop but it does weigh 1kg more and the power brick is not small, that said it is a great machine. The Octane will be the most upgradable, including the CPU, it uses a desk top CPU that is not soldered to the mother board.

Obviously the performance of the Octane depends on the components selected. If, as above, it is selected with an i5 6600 then its single threaded performance will be a bit better than the Defiance's i7 6700HQ, while the multithreaded performance will be a bit lower: http://tinyurl.com/jedfsr9 I think either should be more than a match for FM.

Also while the CPU isn't soldered, that doesn't mean upgrading it is guaranteed. I imagine it's quite likely that a BIOS update allowing for Kaby Lake CPUs will become available after those CPUs are released, but perhaps it's not a certainty? Also, even if it were, buying a ~£200 i5 to replace it with a £280 i7 that's 10-15% faster than the previous gen i7 anyway isn't necessarily the best use of cash: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Kaby-Lake-Core-i7-7500U-Review-Skylake-on-Steroids.172692.0.html (especially if it turns out that the higher frequencies also come with less OCing headroom as some - anandtech iirc? - have speculated will be the case with the desktop CPUs).

Certainly the advantage of the Octane is that it can support the highest end desktop consumer CPUs. But if you're not buying it with one of those but rather with a locked i5 CPU, it robs the Octane of its purpose and of the major benefit of the higher price tag, in my opinion.

Of the two specs above, I'd second the Defiance. Its cooling will be more than enough for a mobile GTX 1060.

Also there's a review model here: available with the i7 6700HQ, 16gb RAM, 500gb Samsung 750 Evo SSD, 1tb WD Blue, and a 3k screen for a fixed £1319 price. https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/reviews/
(you can check GPU temps in the review as well)

Source: Bit-Tech.net Model: Defiance III S Date Added: 27-09-2016 Price: £1,319 URL: View Review Here Quotes: "The chassis is solid and attractive, we love the keyboard and touchpad and performance outside...

 

[TeamDixon2016]

Thank you to the three of you for your excellent advice. Between the three you have answered any questions I had, but did generate two more if you'll indulge me.

I see Kaby Lake processors are due at the beginning of next year, do you think it's worthwhile hanging on a couple of months for the latest processor ?

The Defiance seems to have screen bleed mentioned a lot more often than the Octane does. A google search and forum search brings up a fair few comments on this. Is this the case in a few models or all models sold do you know ?

The wife wants me to get a Surfacebook, which cost a fair few hundred more, and won't have the same level of spec. Her reason being it's Microsoft, and the build quality will be much better, I have never seen a Clevo in person, so do you think they look and feel "cheaper" in comparison to a mac, Dell or MSi for example?

Thank you.

 

[Tony1044]

Also bear in mind with RAM that the slots will be balanced.

By the I mean, let's say you have four slots A,B, C and D

They may well be split such that A & C, and B & D make two pairs.

The reason for this is to ensure that the CPU can address the full width of the memory address space.

Imagine a road, 8 lanes across, 4 heading North and 4 heading South.

Let's further split the North lanes into 2 x 2 and we'll call those A & C

If you were to suddenly close C you still have all the same amount of traffic but on only 2 lanes.

Now I'll caveat that with saying upfront that I am not sure which, if any, laptops still require that and it also may be that the two hard-to-get at slots were a single pair. I'd definitely speak with PCS to be sure you are asking for a valid configuration that isn't artificially limiting performace.

Of course, one way to be sure would be to simply fill all the slots

 

[Oussebon]

I see Kaby Lake processors are due at the beginning of next year, do you think it's worthwhile hanging on a couple of months for the latest processor ?

If you don't need it soon you could do. But then Vega and Volta will be almost upon us so you might end up waiting for the new GPUs too. This article http://www.notebookcheck.net/Kaby-Lake-Core-i7-7500U-Review-Skylake-on-Steroids.172692.0.html shows some of the differences between Skylake and Kaby Lake ULV CPUs though there's no guarantee that the same kinds of differences will be present in mobile (-HQ) or desktop chips.

Clevos don't feel any less solid. We've had a mid-range one over 4 years and the hinges haven't cracked or anything of the sort. It feels perfectly robust. Every chassis of every vendor has pros and cons I'm sure so you just need to make a decision on a chassis by chassis basis.

While commenting on specific competitor builds and models (either in favour of them or against) is against the forum rules, what I would say is that if it were intended that you should keep certain pre-built models of laptops for a long time, they wouldn't keep refreshing them. Obviously Clevo refresh their chassis with new hardware being released, but I don't think they have much of an incentive to refresh chassis without new hardware having come out. You can draw what conclusions you want about the expected longevity of items that are refreshed but don't bother to include new hardware. Some info in this topic might be of interest: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/foru...r(wannabe)-guy&p=376614&viewfull=1#post376614

Now I'll caveat that with saying upfront that I am not sure which, if any, laptops still require that and it also may be that the two hard-to-get at slots were a single pair. I'd definitely speak with PCS to be sure you are asking for a valid configuration that isn't artificially limiting performace.

Of course, one way to be sure would be to simply fill all the slots

In desktops it's A1, A2, B1, B2 and you populate A2+B2 first. It would be crazy if laptops with dual channel boards had it configured the same so that you had to populate 1 DIMM hidden under the keyboard and 1 DIMM around the back - rather than each set of DIMMs living together being its own pair. Though just because it would be bonkers doesn't mean someone didn't design it that way I suppose.

Filling all the slots might technically reduce performance?