Why is the OS on the SSD not recommended?

[martynmoore]

Hi everybody, I'm looking at this spec and I want to install the OS and video editing program on the SSD. The configurator wants me to put them on the NVMe drive in the 1st M.2 slot, but advice elsewhere recommends I put project files and source media here.

I edit with Adobe Premiere.

Why can't I put the OS on the first SSD in the hard disk position? Here's the full spec:


Case
InWIN 503 MID TOWER GAMING CASE (WHITE)
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™ i9 14 Core Processor i9-7940X (3.1GHz) 19.25MB Cache
Motherboard
Gigabyte X299 UD4: ATX, USB 3.1, SATA 6 GB/s
Memory (RAM)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 2666MHz (4 x 16GB)
Graphics Card
11GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1080 Ti - HDMI, 3x DP GeForce - GTX VR Ready!
1st Hard Disk
240GB HyperX SAVAGE 2.5" SSD, SATA 6 Gb/s (upto 560MB/sR | 530MB/sW)
2nd Hard Disk
240GB HyperX SAVAGE 2.5" SSD, SATA 6 Gb/s (upto 560MB/sR | 530MB/sW)
1st M.2 SSD Drive
500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 3200MB/R, 1900MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
16x BLU-RAY WRITER DRIVE, 16x DVD ±R/±RW & SOFTWARE
Power Supply
CORSAIR 650W VS SERIES™ VS-650 POWER SUPPLY
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
INTEL SOCKET 2011/2066 STANDARD CPU COOLER
Thermal Paste
STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING
LED Lighting
50cm Blue LED Strip
Sound Card
ONBOARD 8 CHANNEL (7.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT (Wi-Fi NOT INCLUDED)
USB Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 6 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Genuine Windows 10 Professional 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence

 

[Oussebon]

The configurator wants me to put them on the NVMe drive in the 1st M.2 slot, but advice elsewhere recommends I put project files and source media here.

I edit with Adobe Premiere.

Why can't I put the OS on the first SSD in the hard disk position? Here's the full spec:

Probably because if you were going to put a single thing on the fastest SSD it would be the OS.

Buying a 500gb NVMe SSD and a pair of 240gb SSDs also seems like a strange choice vs just buying a single PM961 and having the whole lot on that. I'm not sure the merits of divvying up where you keep the OS, and various projects, outweights the demerits of having so much on vastly slower SSDs.

The i9-7940X is a monster and I'd suggest a high end liquid cooler like the H110i with it, with the good thermal paste.

I'd also suggest a higher end case to try and keep it and the GPU cool. One of the Fractal Define S or Define R5, or maybe the Corsair 540 Air.

I also wouldn't ideally have those powered by an 80+ white rated PSU. I'd go for the TXm series as a minimum.

 

[ubuysa]

As Oussebon says, the OS absolutely should be on the NVMe drive, it's the OS that will gain the most benefit from being on the fastest drive you have. I'd like to see what advice you are using that recommends against installing the OS on the fastest drive. That just makes no sense....

 

[martynmoore]

Hi Oussebon. I was hoping you might pick this up. You helped me with processor and graphics card choice a couple of weeks ago. Do you think the i9-7940X is overkill? Because the configurator allowed this cooling and case, I just left it. And I like the look of the case.

As far as the drives are concerned, you actually helped me there too. Because you used comparison tables from Pugets for the processor and GPU, if thought this was interesting advice: https://youtu.be/r7zI7MYSY_0?t=2m20s

There are lots of configurations suggested for managing OS, data, programs, caches and previews with Premiere, and it does get a little confusing. This suggestion from Pugets fits the general pattern and puts the Pr projects and source media on the fastest drive. I'd install a fourth drive myself (HDD) for camera clips storage, only copying the clips to the 500gb NVMe SSD for the duration of the 'current edit'.

Thanks for the advice, Oussebon.

 

[martynmoore]

Hi ubuysa. Thanks for the comment. The idea for this came from this film by Pugets: https://youtu.be/r7zI7MYSY_0?t=2m15s

After introducing the idea of spreading OS, programs, data, projects and caches across three SSD drives, they offer the suggestion of an upgrade to one of them, and they say it should be the one with the project files and source files.

I'm not an expert, ubuysa, so I really appreciate the help I get here.

 

[martynmoore]

Advice taken!

OK, so I held back on the 14-core processor. How much will that affect preformance and what tasks will take (slightly) longer, editing, previewing or rendering?

I like the case you suggested and have upgraded cooling and power supply. In fact, I went up two jumps on power because I will be installing my own HDD for storing source media that's not being used in the current editing project.

New spec:

Case
CORSAIR CARBIDE SERIES™ AIR 540 GAMING CASE
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™ i9 12 Core Processor i9-7920X (2.9GHz) 16.5MB Cache
Motherboard
Gigabyte X299 UD4: ATX, USB 3.1, SATA 6 GB/s
Memory (RAM)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 2666MHz (4 x 16GB)
Graphics Card
11GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1080 Ti - HDMI, 3x DP GeForce - GTX VR Ready!
1st Hard Disk
240GB HyperX SAVAGE 2.5" SSD, SATA 6 Gb/s (upto 560MB/sR | 530MB/sW)
2nd Hard Disk
240GB HyperX SAVAGE 2.5" SSD, SATA 6 Gb/s (upto 560MB/sR | 530MB/sW)
1st M.2 SSD Drive
500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 3200MB/R, 1900MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
16x BLU-RAY WRITER DRIVE, 16x DVD ±R/±RW & SOFTWARE
Power Supply
CORSAIR 750W TXm SERIES™ SEMI-MODULAR 80 PLUS® GOLD, ULTRA QUIET
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
Corsair H110i Hydro Series High Performance CPU Cooler
Thermal Paste
EK-TIM ECTOTHERM THERMAL COMPOUND
LED Lighting
50cm Blue LED Strip
Sound Card
ONBOARD 8 CHANNEL (7.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT (Wi-Fi NOT INCLUDED)
USB Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 6 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Genuine Windows 10 Professional 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence

 

[martynmoore]

Gosh, I think I'm starting to enjoy this too much. Oussebon got me thinking again, and ubuysa had supported his position. Thanks guys.

So I swapped a SATA SSD for a 256GB SAMSUNG PM961 M.2, and dropped the 500GB SAMSUNG PM961 M.2 down to 256GB, giving me two 256GB SAMSUNG PM961 M.2s, one for the OS/programs and one for the projects and source media. Caches and scratch go on the 240GB HyperX SAVAGE 2.5" SSD (SATA).

Here's version three:

Case
CORSAIR CARBIDE SERIES™ AIR 540 GAMING CASE
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™ i9 12 Core Processor i9-7920X (2.9GHz) 16.5MB Cache
Motherboard
Gigabyte X299 UD4: ATX, USB 3.1, SATA 6 GB/s
Memory (RAM)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 2666MHz (4 x 16GB)
Graphics Card
11GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1080 Ti - HDMI, 3x DP GeForce - GTX VR Ready!
1st Hard Disk
240GB HyperX SAVAGE 2.5" SSD, SATA 6 Gb/s (upto 560MB/sR | 530MB/sW)
1st M.2 SSD Drive
256GB SAMSUNG PM961 M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 2800MB/R, 1100MB/W)
2nd M.2 SSD Drive
256GB SAMSUNG PM961 M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 2800MB/R, 1100MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
16x BLU-RAY WRITER DRIVE, 16x DVD ±R/±RW & SOFTWARE
Power Supply
CORSAIR 750W TXm SERIES™ SEMI-MODULAR 80 PLUS® GOLD, ULTRA QUIET
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
Corsair H110i Hydro Series High Performance CPU Cooler
Thermal Paste
EK-TIM ECTOTHERM THERMAL COMPOUND
LED Lighting
50cm Blue LED Strip
Sound Card
ONBOARD 8 CHANNEL (7.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT (Wi-Fi NOT INCLUDED)
USB Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 6 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Genuine Windows 10 Professional 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence

And I think this is a little bit cheaper that version one!

Am I making progress, guys?

 

[ubuysa]

Hi ubuysa. Thanks for the comment. The idea for this came from this film by Pugets: https://youtu.be/r7zI7MYSY_0?t=2m15s

After introducing the idea of spreading OS, programs, data, projects and caches across three SSD drives, they offer the suggestion of an upgrade to one of them, and they say it should be the one with the project files and source files.

I'm not an expert, ubuysa, so I really appreciate the help I get here.

That was interesting, thanks for that. I think you have to remember that they are concerned in that video only about their own software and they are not concerned at all about anything else you might do with that PC. They're assuming for example that all your program software has been loaded off the SSD into RAM, which it might - although Windows still regularly reads and writes to the drive running the rest of the system. That being the case it would make sense for that one application to have your project and source media on the fastest drive - because it assumes that Windows and your application code are already in RAM so you want the data the program uses on the fastest drive. I see where they're going with that.

The reason for having three drives is so that you can have three I/O operations (input/output) running concurrently and I can see how that would maximise the performance of that one application. However, I would caution that this makes good sense only if this PC is to be used only for that one application. If this is a general purpose PC that's used for other work as well as that application you probably want to maximise the performance of Windows, because it runs everything else, and that means putting Windows on the NVMe drive - and all your programs too.

I hope that helps some?

 

[martynmoore]

Helps enormously, ubuysa. Thank you. I didn't know RAM was used in that way.

As for the main use of this machine, it will be Adobe CC programs only, I think. Audition for sound editing, Photoshop for graphics, Lightroom for photography, PremPro for video editing and Encore for DVD creation.

I will probably run Chrome for my Google cloud-based apps (mail, docs, Earth etc) and Word for text editing on this machine but these tasks will be carried out on a second machine when I'm editing video.

However, once you got me thinking about fastest drives and where I was proposing to use them, I came up with a third configuration (above) that uses two NVMe drives, allowing me to put OS/programs on one and project and source drives on the other. I've reduced the size of them with a view to adding my own HDD for storing source files for non-active projects.

Does this approach make sense? And will the 12-core processor be much slower than my initial choice of 14-core? I'm surviving (just) with a four-core right now, from seven years ago...

 

[Oussebon]

My understanding of that video is that it's also a bit of a narrative.

So it assumes you start off with 2 Sata SSDs. Then you add a 3rd SSD. Then you replace one of those 3 with an NVMe SSD, or use raid "normal ssds", in the guy's words. I haven't had the chance to watch it in detail, but it didn't sound like a recommendation of how to set up a system from scratch at the ~2-3minute mark, rather how you'd add to an existing one. The written article seems to follow the same pattern, with most of the tests being done with only 1 PCIe SSD available, and with the OS almost always on a Sata drive. I doubt puget would recommend putting the OS on a slower SSD if you had the choice.

That motherboard only has 2 M.2 slots. I'd be wary of filling them both with such small drives.

 

[martynmoore]

Oh, OK. I'm trying to think of what else I might put into an M.2 slot in the future... not sure.

I think the OS/programs will sit fine on one 256GB M.2 drive.

My source files will only be from projects in active post-production. When not being worked on, copies will sit on a 4TB 7200rpm HDD. Archived files sit on a drobo which also acts as my weekly back-up.

A big project might exceed 200GB of camera clips. And the point of the whole build is to work with more 4k footage...

Hmm.

 

[martynmoore]

Last one today

Here's my final configuration for today. I'm supposed to be editing a film to help pay for all this stuff. It's getting very expensive now.

Case
CORSAIR CARBIDE SERIES™ AIR 540 GAMING CASE
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™ i9 12 Core Processor i9-7920X (2.9GHz) 16.5MB Cache
Motherboard
Gigabyte X299 UD4: ATX, USB 3.1, SATA 6 GB/s
Memory (RAM)
64GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 2666MHz (4 x 16GB)
Graphics Card
11GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1080 Ti - HDMI, 3x DP GeForce - GTX VR Ready!
1st Hard Disk
240GB HyperX SAVAGE 2.5" SSD, SATA 6 Gb/s (upto 560MB/sR | 530MB/sW)
2nd Hard Disk
4TB WD BLACK 3.5" WD4004FZWX, SATA 6 Gb/s, 64MB CACHE (7200rpm)
1st M.2 SSD Drive
500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 3200MB/R, 1900MB/W)
2nd M.2 SSD Drive
500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 3200MB/R, 1900MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
16x BLU-RAY WRITER DRIVE, 16x DVD ±R/±RW & SOFTWARE
Power Supply
CORSAIR 750W TXm SERIES™ SEMI-MODULAR 80 PLUS® GOLD, ULTRA QUIET
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
Corsair H110i Hydro Series High Performance CPU Cooler
Thermal Paste
EK-TIM ECTOTHERM THERMAL COMPOUND
LED Lighting
50cm Blue LED Strip
Sound Card
ONBOARD 8 CHANNEL (7.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT (Wi-Fi NOT INCLUDED)
USB Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 6 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Genuine Windows 10 Professional 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence

 

[martynmoore]

I would appreciate some feedback on the 12-core vs 14-core (which tasks would be slower and by how much) and the 256GB M.2 drives vs the 500GB M.2 drives (I'm sure the OS and programs will sit easily on a 256) and what else I might need an M.2 drive for in the future. Thanks again for all your advice so far.

 

[ubuysa]

I would appreciate some feedback on the 12-core vs 14-core (which tasks would be slower and by how much) and the 256GB M.2 drives vs the 500GB M.2 drives (I'm sure the OS and programs will sit easily on a 256) and what else I might need an M.2 drive for in the future. Thanks again for all your advice so far.

I can't help on the CPU cores, it really depends on how multithreaded your applications are and whether they can take advantage of the extra cores or whether you'll be doing a lot of multitasking (running many programs at once).

I would agree that Windows and a whole bunch of application programs will fit easily on a 256GB SSD.

As to what else you might need an M.2 SSD for in the future, it again depends on what applications you plan to run. As we've seen some applications benefit from having application data files on a fast device, so if you plan to run those types of application another M.2 SSD would make sense.

Most user data however doesn't benefit all that much from being on an SSD. If you look at the file size of most ordinary user data it's generally less than 1MB, data transfer time is thus a tiny percentage of the total access time for that data, and whilst an SSD will eliminate the seek/latency of a hard disk and thus provide a much faster access time the difference is measured in milliseconds and you probably won't notice much. Thus reading a Word doc off a hard disk is not really going to be that much slower than reading the same doc off an M.2 SSD, probably noticeable but only barely, yet the cost difference between an M.2 SSD and a hard disk is huge and for most people it doesn't make good economic sense to spend all that money to gain a few milliseconds on most user data files.

Some user data does benefit from being on an SSD, and that's data that has large file sizes. On a hard disk large files are very likely to be fragmented, which increases the seek time and thus the overall access time quite noticeably on a hard disk, and especially so on a big hard disk that's quite full. Picture files are a good example of this, they are large, often fragmented on hard disks, and yet you want them loaded as fast as possible so you don't have to wait for the screen to be painted. Large image files are good candidates for an M.2 SSD, you will notice the speed with which the image is loaded. Large databases are another example of data that benefits from an SSD.

Music and video files don't benefit at all from being on an SSD. This is because the algorithms that are used to read large real-time data files (like music and video) assume the data is on a (slow) hard disk, so a data buffer is allocated in RAM, the disk is accessed to fill that data buffer and the program can start processing that buffer (ie. the music can start playing or the video playing). The program then allocates another buffer in RAM and reads the disk again to fill that buffer. As long as the second buffer is filled before the program gets to the end of the first you don't notice anything, the music or video just keeps playing. Putting music or video files on a SSD means that first buffer is filled faster, so the music or video starts sooner (but again, the difference is measured in milliseconds) and from then on all future buffers are also filled faster - but so what? Until the program reaches the end of the first buffer it doesn't need the second, so filling it faster was pointless....

 

[martynmoore]

That's a great explanation ubuysa. Thank you. I can imagine a M.2 SSD will speed up my work in Lightroom and Photoshop. I sometimes have Photoshop, Premiere Pro and Word open together. Maybe Audition and Encore too. I guess that's multitasking. I'll find out how much Premiere Pro relies on multithreading.

I'll need to read your advice relating to video files again and think about its relevance to video editing. I understand why a SSD will not benefit playing a video file, but I am importing video files into Premiere Pro, modifying them and outputting them as a collection of edited clips. This might be different to simply playing a video file.

 

[martynmoore]

Found this on core i9 processors and Premiere Pro: https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/a...-Performance-Core-i9-7940X-7960X-7980XE-1034/

 

[ubuysa]

I'll need to read your advice relating to video files again and think about its relevance to video editing. I understand why a SSD will not benefit playing a video file, but I am importing video files into Premiere Pro, modifying them and outputting them as a collection of edited clips. This might be different to simply playing a video file.

I don't know how video editing programs work, nor how they use the HDD/SSD. I suspect that you're right that they don't simply use a read ahead buffer as when playing, my guess is that they would try to keep as much of the video file in RAM as possible and it may well be beneficial to have videos you're editing on a fast SSD. I would recommend that you seek advice from people who are experienced in video editing and the way it uses the computer's resources in order to decide what storage devices best suit you.

 

[martynmoore]

Thanks ubuysa. I think I will go along with the popular view that three SSDs will give me the best configuration. Two of them will be in M.2 slots and have the OS and program on one (256GB), and project files and source files on the other (500GB). The third SSD (250GB) will be in the SATA socket and have media cache and scratch files on it. Only source files of active edits will be kept on SSD; a 4TB HDD will hold a short-term archive of recent and dormant projects.