Brand new defiance 15

[Tony1044]

Just wanted to share my experience with buying the above laptop.

Ordered it on Friday 7th August 2015. Given that the plan is for this to be my main work machine and I only replace every few years (this is replacing a late-2011 MacBook Pro used 99% in Windows) I have no real issue paying to get the best spec I can.

I also paid for the fast track service and an extra power brick.

Well it was finally delivered yesterday after 8 working days. Ok, I have the fast track payment refunded (or a credit note...not sure yet though I want the money, thanks).

It spent almost all of this additional time in testing and here's where things went downhill. I was told (have the messages) that this was down to issues with tracking down drivers for Windows 10. I did say I wasn't really that hooked up on it and if it would help speed things up, to throw 8.1 on and I'd upgrade later. I did question why this wasn't flagged up when ordering as other problems/configuration issues do get flagged.

Then on Sunday I got an (admittedly automated) email telling me the delay was simply down to the testing department being busier than usual.

The log files that are on the machine from testing show a repeated testing failure for the GPU. But hey let's ship it anyway.

Drivers-wise, the trackpad is lamentable. Two finger scolling works entirely at random - it's apparently using the very latest driver from Synaptics which is meant to be OS compatible). It also feels very sluggish even set to the most sensitive setting.

The fingerprint scanner won't finish enrolling - it goes through the process of reading the finger print 6 times, all saying ok and then just fails.

I ordered with a pair of M2 SSD's as I have a 1TB SATA SSD to throw in. When I popped the bottom off of the case, some of the cable routing is crammed over a vent into a corner, crimping it.

On Monday I got an email telling me they'd been unable to source the second power supply - no mention of if they will send later or refund.

All in all this is incredibly frustrating and disappointing. The reviews etc I'd read of PC Specialist put me at ease but my personal experiences aren't marrying to that.

I haven't had a chance to fully test any further due to time but the whole experience is leaving me feeling underwhelmed. This is a two grand laptop and yet the service...well, what service?

 

[keynes]

Sorry to hear that. Credit note does mean a refund. I would suggest contacting PCS directly to raise your concerns and see what action to take. I haven't used the defiance but if the trackpad is not is not functional you could ask for a replacement or technical support of how to get it sorted.

 

[Tony1044]

Sorry to hear that. Credit note does mean a refund. I would suggest contacting PCS directly to raise your concerns and see what action to take. I haven't used the defiance but if the trackpad is not is not functional you could ask for a replacement or technical support of how to get it sorted.

Thanks Keynes.

To be honest at the moment I am not entirely convinced it's the trackpad as there are lots of posts on various forums reporting much the same issues with Win 10 and the Synaptics drivers.

For me more worrying have been the general lack of communication and the fact it's shipped with testing logs riddled with GPU failures.

 

[Carlosis]

I've just ordered the Defiance also, it appears the general consensus is to not order Windows 10 then?

 

[Tony1044]

Hi Carlosis. I just came here to pop an update on and saw your question.

Firstly - fair play (and kudos) to PCS as they replaced my first unit with a brand new one.

Secondly the new one came and neither the trackpad nor the fingerprint reader work still. The trackpad now feels much more resposive but otherwise it has exactly the same issues - the trackpad has no two-finger scrolling and the fingerprint software fails to enrol.

Given though, that it's brand new hardware and a new installation, this suggests to me simple driver / software version issues.

This time round when I put in the additional drives, the cable routing is much neater and passes under the fans (can't see if they are / are not trapped in any way but certainly neater than them poking out the vents.

So far my testing has been limited due to the problems and/or time away (both mine on holiday and the unit's in RMA) but the above are the only two problems I've found to date.

Performance-wise I need to run some benchmarks but the RAID0 m.2 SSD's don't seem lightning fast compared to my crucial SATA SSD and I'd have expected marked improvement, but...that may also be coupled with Windows 10 which doesn't seem to be as slick as earlier versions. Having said that, that too could be simple perception based on the fact that Microsoft have moved some bits around in some seemingly very random fashions making it less intuitive and harder to find things.

Still early days but overall I am very happy with the replacement.

Would I go 8.1 or 7 over 10? Only if I was planning to use the trackpad more in anger and/or needed the fingerprint scanner.

 

[Tony1044]

So as an update to the Synaptics driver - I found a newer version on the Toshiba website which seems to be somewhat more reliable although it seems to still lose focus and stop scrolling but at least clicking back into the window allows it to work.

The download is available here http://cdgenp01.csd.toshiba.com/content/support/downloads/tcm0005200h.exe

Note it's a slow download speed.

 

[Tony1044]

Yeah it's still unreliable in use, unfortunately.

 

[Tony1044]

Bugger - to elaborate, the laptop itself is fine. The trackpad is not.

 

[ubuysa]

Bugger - to elaborate, the laptop itself is fine. The trackpad is not.

Get PCS to fix it. A trackpad is essential i would have thought? They shouldn't have sent you the laptop unless everything was 100% working! Why should you have to fix it? If they know there is an issue with Win 10 then they should put Win 8.1 on.

It's more than likely a Windows 10 driver problem. There are lots of driver issues with Windows 10, including with trackpads. If you have a legal copy of Windows 7/8/8.1 I'd suggest you install that and the appropriate drivers (which you can get from PCS or Clevo) and see whether that sorts it (I bet it does). At least you'll then know if it's a hardware issue or not. If this is your main work machine I would not recommend Windows 10 at the moment.

 

[Rakk]

Its a shame that he would have to do this himself after paying for a 'working' laptop. Ok, its not PCSs fault that Win 10 has 'some' driver issues but knowing that they should have shipped it with Win 8.1 as we all know that everyone has a year to upgrade to Win 10 for free.

Unfortunately there is no 'win' scenario here though, they could restrict to Win7/8.1, however then you would get the 'OMG they don't even supply Win10, how behind the times are they!' problem

People want stuff now and don't want to get an older OS and have to upgrade later with any associated pitfalls - for instance, my mum and dad have been banned from upgrading to Win10 until either myself or my brother are there to do it and fix any issues - because they just wouldn't know what to do

 

[keynes]

If a customers orders windows 10 I don't see how they can ship windows 8.1. I am unaware of how big suppliers are handling this but PCS but they rely on Clevo sorting drivers if that's the issue.

 

[Gr4]

I dont think they are responsible for any software

 

[ubuysa]

Well, given the current issues i an sure PCS could offer Win 8.1 as an alternative seeing as Win 10 will be available free until July next year. As for relying on Clevo to sort the drivers out well the buck stops with PCS as they are the ones supplying the PCs!!

Any PC / Laptop sold by PCS should be delivered 100% working. You don't buy a brand new car to be told the lights don't work because of a manufacturer problem!!

I don't know what the OEM deal with Microsoft is, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that Microsoft insist on OEMs always shipping the latest version of Windows. Microsoft have a vested interest in getting as many users on to Windows 10 as fast as they can.

 

[keynes]

Well, given the current issues i an sure PCS could offer Win 8.1 as an alternative seeing as Win 10 will be available free until July next year. As for relying on Clevo to sort the drivers out well the buck stops with PCS as they are the ones supplying the PCs!!

Any PC / Laptop sold by PCS should be delivered 100% working. You don't buy a brand new car to be told the lights don't work because of a manufacturer problem!!

Fair enough, however if you ordered windows 10 you are going to be affected and rely on Clevo not PCS for drivers. You can carry on saying it could be done or give great solutions but there might be issues that we are not aware of.

 

[Gr4]

well they are software so ?

 

[keynes]

Oh i see, so if you buy a PC and say the network drivers are not working, or the GPU drivers are not working it is not the responsibility of the PC Builder?

Yep. I had some issues with my smart TV bought through John Lewis and they directed me to Samsung for support in terms of drivers they can't help. I am sure PCS wants everything sorted as soon as possible but they can also ask for them, Clevo is the one in charge or liable for drivers. They are resellers not manufacturers.

 

[Gr4]

:surrender:

 

[keynes]

Yes, but if you buy a PC from 'any' PC supplier, shop etc then you expect it to be working 100% when you buy it!! If PCS know that the trackpad is not working (Which is a must on a laptop) then it is up to them to find a solution or not send it out in its current format.

When i have built PCs for people, friends, family etc, i wouldn't dream of giving them a 99% working PC!! lol "Oh by the Bud, i have built the PC for you but windows doesn't work as its not compatible with the hardware!!" lol

Your expectations are different from what happens with most sellers. You clearly haven't shopped at Currys/PC world . I had issues with drivers with Dell and were not sorted successfully as well. You are also comparing building desktops with laptops. I think there are always software issues with new OS and whether or not you experience them I think depends on how specialised/complicated your build is

 

[ubuysa]

Yes, but if you buy a PC from 'any' PC supplier, shop etc then you expect it to be working 100% when you buy it!! If PCS know that the trackpad is not working (Which is a must on a laptop) then it is up to them to find a solution or not send it out in its current format.

When i have built PCs for people, friends, family etc, i wouldn't dream of giving them a 99% working PC!! lol "Oh by the way Bud, i have built the PC for you but windows doesn't work as its not compatible with the hardware!!" lol

So you saying its ok if they don't work because its only software!! lol

But, doesn't matter. If you went to trading standards they would say that what PCS has sold you is not 'Fit for purpose'. PCS have a duty to make sure that the Laptops / PCs they send out work 100%. Simples

If it doesn't work with Win 10 but they know it does with Win 8.1 then they should offer that and an upgrade to 10 can be done at a later date when they know there are no issues.

I think you're being a tad naive here. Of course PCS should send out computers that are fully working but, as keyens quite rightly said, PCS have no control over the operating system nor the drivers. If a customer orders Windows 10 then I agree that PCS should probably tell them that there are issues with Windows 10 and drivers on all sorts of platforms and that some features might not work fully on their computer at the moment.

Try complaining to Trading Standards about this issue and see how far you get. LOL indeed.

I don't know what you expect PCS to do? Of course they should ship machines working 100%, but if the problem is driver, or BIOS, or Windows 10 related what can they do? Clevo supply the chassis, all the drivers and the BIOS, and Microsoft supplies Windows 10, PCS just build them and test them. I admire you for ensuring that all the PCs you build work 100% when you deliver them, but I defy you to guarantee that with Windows 10 at the moment.

Frankly, if you order a computer with Windows 10 and you haven't been following the myriad of reports of driver issues on here and elsewhere then that's partly your fault. The sensible option for all PCS customers for the next 10 months at least, is to order Windows 8.1, which is still available via the configurator, and then upgrade to Windows 10 yourself. That way you have a fall-back position (Windows 8.1) and you can afford to wait until the Windows 10 driver issues are resolved.

 

[keynes]

you are referring to "obligation" and "should never sent out a PC fully working". First having issues with one part of the system e.g trackpad wouldn't qualify at least for me as not fully working then what do you mean by obligation? Who sets the standards and rules? Many manufacturers, resellers experience issues with drivers big or small