PCS - Laptop Build Quality

[ubuysa]

I assume because of the horrendous thermal throttling on the CPU in the AIDA graphs. Obviously something could have happened after PCS checked it to cause those issues - that said the OP may have checked for obvious things such as damage or things coming loose in transit.

I ask because in post #3 the OP commented '...would be 4th RMA if it where not for the fact I built computers...' which suggests that the OP has applied some sort of 'fix' themselves, this might be unrelated of course but I'm interested to know what caused the OP to immediately suspect the thermal paste.

It's possible the BIOS updates included adjustments to the laptop's cooling profile that would have helped address the thermal issues, though with a quick google I didn't find the release notes which might have been interesting so I'm none the wiser there.

Indeed, BIOS updates do usually contain updates and adjustments, I'm interested to know whether (and how) the OP knows what those updates and adjustments actually are or whether they are just chasing version numbers.

 

[Oussebon]

I figured, it's why I tried looking for the patch notes

 

[chrhil]

For clarification:-
The missing screw was posted to me and it arrived the next day.
1st RMA was to have screen swapped (May) - avoided a 2nd RMA by applying the screen fix to the swapped screen myself, as directed by PCS.
3rd RMA would have been to sort an issue with the power lead dropping out of the back, PCS proposed a motherboard change (as the jack is soldered to mainboard). A Replacement power adapter did not solve the issue of the lead dropping out.

The first Aida screen shot was taken the day I got the laptop.

It was immediately evident there was a thermal issue with a 6700K in the P775DM1-G. Unfortunately, there was no way of taming (undervolting) the 6700K through the Clevo 1.05.05 BIOS. To me, using XTU was unacceptable as a permanent solution. BIOS 1.05.06 was already available prior to my build (see here). So, I hoped 1.05.06 allowed undervolting (as did other P775DM1-G owners).

I had my doubts about the build quality immediately, because of that missing screw - so thermal paste being incorrectly applied was always at the back of my mind.

BIOS 1.05.09 unlocked some overclock settings, however Clevo did not allow minus values to be set for core offset voltage - this caused a problem with the changes made using XTU and after a reboot -150mV became +150mV, if you forgot to go straight into XTU and set the -150mv profile.

I recently chased BIOS 1.05.11 (released September). As you will see from the second Aida screenshot, the 'at factory setting' overheating issues had got worse - which suggested to me the thermal compound had deteriorated and/or the CPU was damaged.

PCS repasted the CPU and GPU yesterday and made no comment either way about the original application.

Undervolting through XTU made the laptop usuable and quite brilliant, however I was after a permanent BIOS based solution which did not require constant tinkering through XTU.

 

[ubuysa]

Thanks for this detailed explanation, it's much more helpful and informative than your first post. I think you'd have had a better experience here had you posted this first rather than the one you did.

For clarification:-
The missing screw was posted to me and it arrived the next day.
1st RMA was to have screen swapped (May) - avoided a 2nd RMA by applying the screen fix to the swapped screen myself, as directed by PCS.
3rd RMA would have been to sort an issue with the power lead dropping out of the back, PCS proposed a motherboard change (as the jack is soldered to mainboard). A Replacement power adapter did not solve the issue of the lead dropping out.

Screws should not be missing, there's no doubt about that. People make mistakes though, even with the best will in the world. PCS apparently shipped you the screw as soon as you made the problem known however. I don't agree that one missing screw equates to poor build quality, it's an isolated error.

The screen issue is unfortunate but it happens, again however PCS swapped the screen for you. It seems they also provided a solution to the 'nipping' problem as well, which you applied yourself.

I assume you did take up PCS's offer to swap the motherboard because of the power lead problem? Why did it take so long for you to find what would seem to be an obvious problem? Had you spotted it earlier the motherboard could have been changed in your first RMA (with the screen).

The first Aida screen shot was taken the day I got the laptop.

Which begs the question; why did you not send it straight back? I would have done and I'm pretty sure most others on here would have too. I agree that Q&A should have picked that up, though we can never be certain that it wasn't ok during the burn in phase however unlikely, but having seen those temperatures on day one a reasonable person would have sent it back immediately.

It was immediately evident there was a thermal issue with a 6700K in the P775DM1-G. Unfortunately, there was no way of taming (undervolting) the 6700K through the Clevo 1.05.05 BIOS. To me, using XTU was unacceptable as a permanent solution. BIOS 1.05.06 was already available prior to my build (see here). So, I hoped 1.05.06 allowed undervolting (as did other P775DM1-G owners).

Now this is where I become concerned. As I've said, given those temperatures a reasonable person would have sent it back, trying to hunt down an unofficial BIOS update that might or might not help is not sensible, neither is installing additional software to attempt an undervolt to mitigate those (clearly abnormal) temperatures. I don't even know whether undervolting voids your warranty, did you check?

I had my doubts about the build quality immediately, because of that missing screw - so thermal paste being incorrectly applied was always at the back of my mind.

I think you're stretching a point there. As I've mentioned, one missing screw is clearly a mistake, it's not an indication of poor build quality. I do agree that something was not right with those temperatures, so it should have gone straight back.

BIOS 1.05.09 unlocked some overclock settings, however Clevo did not allow minus values to be set for core offset voltage - this caused a problem with the changes made using XTU and after a reboot -150mV became +150mV, if you forgot to go straight into XTU and set the -150mv profile.

I recently chased BIOS 1.05.11 (released September). As you will see from the second Aida screenshot, the 'at factory setting' overheating issues had got worse - which suggested to me the thermal compound had deteriorated and/or the CPU was damaged.

To be perfectly frank, none of this is your concern really. The BIOS (and I've written a couple in my time) is really part of the hardware, it's not something you should be updating unless PCS have told you that it's required. You're flirting with voiding the warranty again if you do. Even the site you linked to warns you that 'This is an unofficial repository...' and with something as critical as a BIOS even thinking of using an unofficial one is playing with fire.

In any case, none of this is your concern. Your problem is an overheating CPU, why that's happening isn't your problem, you paid for a working laptop and you didn't get one so it should have gone straight back. All this undervolting and BIOS update chatter is just noise.

PCS repasted the CPU and GPU yesterday and made no comment either way about the original application.

Which is good news. However, if you'd had the motherboard replaced, and especially if you'd had that done in your first RMA, they'd have been repasted anyway and you'd have had a perfect laptop after only one RMA.

Undervolting through XTU made the laptop usuable and quite brilliant, however I was after a permanent BIOS based solution which did not require constant tinkering through XTU.

You were not after a permanent BIOS solution at all, nor should you have been messing with undervolting. You might be a techie but you didn't build that laptop (which is under warranty and with a seven day money back guarantee) and it seems to have been faulty from day one. I've been in the computer industry for over 35 years and I'd have sent it straight back. So should you I'm afraid.

 

[chrhil]

***I provided the link to the unofficial Clevo BIOS list because this is the only place I could find the information you requested in a previous post. All BIOS activity on this laptop has been performed by PCS or as directed by PCS using only their approved BIOS.***

This post https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?52069-Octane-Tips-Tricks-Info-and-Experiences, which Oussebon also pointed out, whilst it relates to the Octane III is as equally relevant to the Octane II (when fitted with a 6700K).

The laptop went back within the first few weeks for the screen, BIOS and temperature issue. It was stress tested by PCS, this is when the BIOS was incorrectly downgraded to 1.05.01 (not sure if they did EC too?) and deemed by PCS to be OK!

I had a lot going on at the time it arrived back, so stupidly missed that the BIOS had been mistakenly downgraded by PCS. The laptop was seemingly working OK. What I also failed to notice was that the CPU was now actually downclocking to 3.0GHz under load, this is why the temperatures seemed OK.

It was not until early July that I had noticed the BIOS had actually been downgraded and this was only after PCS had posted another BIOS update in my downloads section (which failed to download). PCS eventually emailed me 1.05.09 and EC 1.05.04, which I installed myself (after correcting the written installation procedure provided by PCS!).

Clevo/PCS have been aware that the BIOS is the problem and that the stock voltage of the 6700K needs to be reduced. Whilst most P775DM1-G users seemed happy using XTU or a 3rd Party BIOS to get their 6700K to behave, I was not - I had paid for a Gold Warranty with PCS. I wanted a permanent solution which only the BIOS could offer.

PCS are hoping that BIOS 1.05.11 allows the required settings and so do I. There is a 3rd party BIOS kicking around that totally opens up the P775DM1-G BIOS and seemingly solves the problem. Some other Clevo using manufacturers (see EUROCOM) have adopted this BIOS (Premamod), knowing the limitations of the stock Clevo one and also knowing that the 6700K (and now 7700K) run a lot cooler with a lower core voltage.

 

[ubuysa]

I really do think you're failing to see the wood for the trees and perhaps you need to take a step back. I suspect that you're over-thinking the problem and attempting to be too technical when a simpler approach is what's really needed. All this BIOS talk is a complete red herring.

From your earlier posting, and I mean the AIDIA64 test in post #7 which you say was run on day 1, you have a laptop that's overheating and which is clearly at fault. It should have been sent straight back. Period.

That you attempted to diagnose why it was overheating is admirable and interesting from a academic viewpoint, but it's a faulty laptop and you should have sent it back - or at least phoned PCS and ask for their advice. Everything else is just noise.

 

[rt1707]

Just to add in my 2p worth... I bought a Latife II for just over £500 and the build quality was excellent. The laptop performs excellently, is great value and literally nothing to complain about.

 

[chrhil]

Comment from Clevo “load in testing software we are seeing the CPU temperature of around 92~93 degrees. Even at 93 degrees, the temperature is still well below the throttle temperature/Tjunction max of 100 degrees on Skylake processors.”

 

[Oussebon]

Possibly not how I would use the term "well below" but I assume those temps are without any undervolting, so at least sane temps should be doable there even if Clevo are saying that the thing runs very hot in their own tests.

 

[chrhil]

Possibly not how I would use the term "well below" but I assume those temps are without any undervolting, so at least sane temps should be doable there even if Clevo are saying that the thing runs very hot in their own tests.

Yep, the only way you will get an Octane to run at sane temperatures is to undervolt!

 

[Tony1044]

I had problems with my first laptop from PCS. I've got over 20 years' experience in IT as well as originally being a (fully qualified to degree level) electronics engineer - one of my jobs was repairing laptops, desktops and servers to component level back in the day when we did that kind of thing in the UK.

Rather than try to show I knew more than them or anyone else, I called them and they swapped it.

The replacement's been absolutely fine.

The whole process took PCS less than a week from collecting my old one to delivering a shiny new one.

 

[chrhil]

I had problems with my first laptop from PCS. I've got over 20 years' experience in IT as well as originally being a (fully qualified to degree level) electronics engineer - one of my jobs was repairing laptops, desktops and servers to component level back in the day when we did that kind of thing in the UK.

Rather than try to show I knew more than them or anyone else, I called them and they swapped it.

The replacement's been absolutely fine.

The whole process took PCS less than a week from collecting my old one to delivering a shiny new one.

I asked for a replacement prior to the first RMA, however I was promised it was going to be fixed. Perhaps PCS has changed their policy since your experience.

 

[Tony1044]

I asked for a replacement prior to the first RMA, however I was promised it was going to be fixed. Perhaps PCS has changed their policy since your experience.

You had two weeks grace. You should have threatened to cancel the order if it wasn't replaced. That's what I said. Politely. That doesn't include accusing their staff of failing interviews in fast food joints, which is insulting not funny. That is like me saying you should perhaps try to interview for mcdonalds given you clearly suck at building computers. Hilarious. Not.

It isn't PCS' fault that you didn't read or understand their 14 days return policy. It's hardly hidden: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/terms/returns-policy/

"6 Cancellation and Returns
6.1 If you are contracting as a consumer, you may cancel a Contract at any time within 14 calendar days, beginning on the day you received the Products. You must notify us via durable medium (email / letter) and quote your order number in any communication. Notification by phone is not sufficient."

You don't even have to look too hard to find it! In fact, you don't even need to trawl through PCS' website: http://bfy.tw/9hzQ

In a nutshell you knew from day one that your machine was faulty but you seem to have posted a lot of what amounts to "because I know better than PCS staff, I did this, this and this and some of it even came from unsupported sources and ran the risk of invalidating the warranty, aren't I super clever?" rather than simply exercising your rights to have it replaced or cancelling the order.

You spoke in rather derisory terms about them not applying what you believed to be the fix which if I am correct in understanding didn't actually fix it?

Did it never occur to you that there may be very valid, Clevo-backed, reasons why PCS didn't upgrade the firmware in the first instance? Do you have access to all of Clevo's technical bulletins?

You repeatedly claim that the CPU needs to be undervolted to run cooler whilst simultaneously apparently claiming that it was a duff pasting job. I guess it could be both but given the information provided later that Clevo themselves show these run hot, well it sounds like more boastful ranting.

Then the rest of your posts amount to a lot more bragging about how much more you know than PCS and yet still have a poor quality / faulty laptop.

And yet it could all have been ended with one call or web chat backed up with an email.

If you'd come here and asked straight away, you'd probably also have been told to call/email and get it replaced. I rather suspect that some of the other folks here probably know an awful lot more about putting PC's together (I won't call plugging modular components together into a case, building).

Sorry but you simply come across as rude and arrogant and unwilling to listen to advice and valid points and unfortunately your approach just goes a long way alienating people.

 

[chrhil]

14 days had passed by the time the RMA was finally authorised and following much polite dialogue. PCS had not updated my BIOS before originally sending it out (PCS had not even put their own branded BIOS on it - it came with Clevo branding), which they believed could be the problem. PCS then somehow ended up rolling back the BIOS to an earlier one during the RMA. It worked when I got it back - I failed to notice a) It was underclocking b) PCS had rolled back the BIOS to one which had a 'fault' (it underclocked the CPU under load)

Undervolting works - as has been posted several times on other threads in this forum (which is where I think I first read about it). I just wanted/want to be able to do this in the BIOS.

Incidentally, XTU installed as part of 'Hotkey' which I downloaded as part of the driver installation package from within my PCS account.

 

[Tony1044]

14 days had passed by the time the RMA was finally authorised and following much polite dialogue. PCS had not updated my BIOS before originally sending it out (PCS had not even put their own branded BIOS on it - it came with Clevo branding), which they believed could be the problem. PCS then somehow ended up rolling back the BIOS to an earlier one during the RMA. It worked when I got it back - I failed to notice a) It was underclocking b) PCS had rolled back the BIOS to one which had a 'fault' (it underclocked the CPU under load)

Undervolting works - as has been posted several times on other threads in this forum (which is where I think I first read about it). I just wanted/want to be able to do this in the BIOS.

Raising an RMA has nothing to do with you invoking the right to send it back, or leveraging that to get it replaced. If, as you say, you knew from day one, then it was your right and responsibility.

When my first machine arrived I noticed it had problems also on day one. I was on to PCS less than 4 hours later as time permitted asking for them to either please replace it or refund me and I'd go elsewhere, with the former actually being my preferred option.

I am not suggesting undervolting doesn't work but in your case it wasn't initially supported but you chose to go off and do your own thing including sourcing an alternative BIOS from other websites. Something I wouldn't personally ever do, by the way, because who knows what little extra bits are put in there - christ, even Lenovo had spyware built into theirs a bit back and it was them doing it!

As far as your posts go, it seems to boil down to:

Machine delivered with issues
RMA Raised
Tried to do stuff outside of this including things that PCS could legitimately have walked away from as having voided the warranty
Failed to report ALL the issues so they could be cured in a single RMA
Continued to do other things alongside working with PCS who continued to, by the sounds of it, allow you to complete your own repairs under their instruction whilst still maintaining their warranty
Rant and moan

I may have some of that wrong. I got distracted by things on my fully working PCS Defiance II reading such a long thread.

The branding is only a PNG or JPG in the BIOS. Other than that, it appears stock.

Has it never occurred to you that they didn't "roll back" the BIOS version, but that they perhaps changed the motherboard due to a fault? Or are you referring to the fact that they removed the unauthorised version you put on, because frankly if I was investigating the repair I'd start by reverting anything that was from an unapproved source that was so critical to the system.

 

[chrhil]

1) All issues were reported, immediately.
2) I trusted PCS could fix it all and agreed to the RMA (where screen, bios and further checks/testing were to be performed).

I was aware of my rights to cancel/get a refund. However, PCS were very apologetic about the experience I had received and ensured checks would be put in place to prevent this happening in the future. I made the decision to trust that PCS would put things right - instead of pressing for a refund and, as I stated in my previous post, I initially thought they had.

Later on - the only firmware I touched was the one which PCS R & D e-mailed to me directly to install (rather than send it back in again).

 

[chrhil]

The End.

 

[chrhil]

By downgrading the BIOS during the first RMA, the RMA technician had in fact invalidated PCS's warranty with Clevo. This may or may not have caused problems with the further legitimate installation of BIOS/EC updates and could have been the underlying cause of the problems experienced. I hope I do not get the same trouble with a P775DM3-G!

 

[chrhil]

I would finally just like to add, that the PCS Customer Service Team have been exceptionally helpful and very understanding. I have been assured that changes have been made and that in the future it is highly unlikely that anyone else purchasing from PCS will experience similar problems.

 

[ubuysa]

By downgrading the BIOS during the first RMA, the RMA technician had in fact invalidated PCS's warranty with Clevo. This may or may not have caused problems with the further legitimate installation of BIOS/EC updates and could have been the underlying cause of the problems experienced. I hope I do not get the same trouble with a P775DM3-G!

Do you have access to the warranty terms between Clevo and PCS? How can you possibly know what arrangements exist between these two companies?

I would finally just like to add, that the PCS Customer Service Team have been exceptionally helpful and very understanding. I have been assured that changes have been made and that in the future it is highly unlikely that anyone else purchasing from PCS will experience similar problems.

I'm very glad it appears to be sorted for you, and if your unfortunate experience benefits others then it's not been entirely in vain.